On the heels of an article in Sports Illustrated in January is an article in the sports section of the Toronto Sun.
Excerpt:
There are the runners like Curly, who never saw a fence line or dirt trail they couldn’t wear down.
And there are the divas like Georgia, who go on publicity
junkets and stay at the Beverly Hilton, wearing rhinestone-studded
collars and hot pink tank tops that say “Biscuits are a girl’s best
friend.”
They could be your dog, your neighbour’s, even one of those you see in a magazine being doted on by a celebrity owner.
These, though, are Michael Vick’s dogs.
A couple of comments from my personal opinion mill – overall it is a good positive article.
I would however like to debate the fact there is a fighting gene. Here is the statement as it appears in the article:
sun rises in the east. It is, quite simply, a fact of life.
This statement is utter BS. There are traits bred into dogs for specific purpose. Terriers as a whole are very tenacious and bulldog breeds very strong and muscular. They are not able to breed in characteristics such as “aggression” which isn't mentioned here but a common misconception. Learned behaviour is not possible to breed in to a dogs genetic makeup any more than any other mammal. As someone I know says, if you could breed in behavioural traits, dogs would be bred to heel!
If this statement was intended to mean that one can't deny the history of the breed; I would have no problem. History should never be denied since it forms where we exist today and where we are headed into the future.
I also have a problem with the broad statement that the American Pit Bull Terrier and the American Staffordshire Terrier are one in the same. This isn't entirely true. In addition to the UKC registering the APBT, the American Dog Breeders Assn (ADBA) also registers the APBT. There is a difference between the American Staffordshire Terrier and the American Pit Bull Terrier similar to the difference between the Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the Bull Terrier or Boston Terrier or Jack Russel Terrier.. you get what I mean. They are all distinct breeds. One is not better or worse than another, they are just separate breeds; period. To wrap the recognition of a breed within a breed registry such as the AKC or CKC, is not as simple as saying; we want to get away from such and such. Let's change the name and land recognition with a certain registry. It is a far more complicated process and it is unfair and over simplified to blanket that statement. It is misleading to oversimplify and that is a whole other blog post.
I agree with this statement:
Vick dogs to determine what, exactly, makes up a pit bull. The
“genericizing,” as Racer calls it, of all dangerous dogs into one
catchall term — “pit bull” — is troubling to many enthusiasts.
What I agree with in this statement is that the assumption is commonly made that “if it attacks it is a 'pitbull'”. The term “pitbull” is a catchall phrase. That is exactly what it is since it certainly isn't a breed or anything that can 100% be identified beyond a shadow of a doubt such as the case of a registered dog. A registered dog has a pedigree; therefore it can be identified for what its lineage is. What this statement doesn't tell you is there are far more breeds that are caught in the net.
All mastiff types, boxers, visulas, ridgebacks, labs, on and on… refer to the previous article on Wag the Dog and see for yourself the type of dogs being targeted in Mississauga and everywhere else in Ontario. Thousands of dog owners being targeted, owning all breeds, mixes and types.
The purebreds are extremely rare in Canada.
I posted in a previous article the numbers of registrations for last year in Canada with the CKC. (see below) There are less than 50 American Staffordshire Terriers in the whole province of Ontario. There are aprox 1500 purebreds of all 3 banned purebreds combined, in the whole province. These thousands of dog owners that have been targeted, dragged through court, had thier dogs taken and killed or shipped… they aren't purebred banned dogs. They are mixed breed dogs and I guarantee you, they aren't Am Staff crosses!
Sorry for the lengthy rant, but would it really be like me not to throw in my two cents? It was a good article.
Here is the excerpt from the previous post giving the numbers of registries for Canada in case you missed it.
The
number of AmStaffs and Staffords registered in Canada (remember they are only prohibited in Ontario therefore it is legal to breed them
in the rest of the country) are:
American Staffordshire Terrier 11
Staffordshire Bull Terrier 64
I
do not have the number for the American Pit Bull Terrier since they are
not CKC registered. We estimate there are roughly 1500 registered dogs of all three breeds combined in the whole province of Ontario! That includes purebred dogs that were born before
Nov 27, 2005 or that lived in the province prior to August 28, 2005.
I know the Amstaff breeders insist that their breed is distinct from the APBT, but you can't possibly say that they are as distinct as the Amstaff is from the Jack Russell Terrier or Bull Terrier.
The fact is, many of the original register American Staffordshire Terriers, like Pete the Pup, were registered American Pit Bull Terriers with the UKC. UKC registered pit bulls could be registered as Amstaffs as late as 1976 and even today many dogs are registered in both registries.
I doubt very much that you could find any Boston Terrier, Bull Terrier or Jack Russell Terrier cross-registered as an American Pit Bull Terrier with the UKC.
The AmStaff and the APBT were the same breed at one time. They diverged in the 1930s. Many breeds today weren't registered until after that, so these are considered old breeds.
The AmStaff and APBT used to be cross-registered only because the AKC wanted to add this once-popular purebred to its ranks.
As for the 'fighting gene', can anybody tell us where that is? I guess I have to write a letter to the editor. Sigh…
Seriously, these 'pit bull' experts aren't helping. The old denying their history meme sounds logical, but isn't. I must admit when I read the article (linked at another blog) I just very quickly skimmed it and noticed some mistakes, such as Tim from BadRap saying if an AmStaff bites somebody, it becomes a 'pit bull'.
Hey Tim, it's way worse than that. Any short-haired mutt (and sometimes they even have double coats) that bites somebody is a 'pit bull'. So are Boxers, Bullmastiffs, Labs and lots more. Don't feel singled out, man.
I think 1500 is a rather high estimate for the number of DOLA purebreds in Ontario and usually put it at less than 1,000.
Doh, 'fewer than 1000'.
I have emailed the managing editor at AP and asked for a source for the 'fighting gene' fact.
This kind of bulls**t must not be allowed to stand – more 'evidence' for the 'government'.
To clarify, I wasn't saying the JRT, BT or Boston Terrier were cross registered with either the Am Staff or American Pit Bull Terrier. I was saying they are registered as separate breeds like any other purebred breed of dog. Yes, there are some lines crossed and cross registries but all breeds are made up of crossing and outsourcing other breeds. For instance, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is “added in” to the Jack Russel Terrier every so many generations. I am not a breeder so you would be better to have someone who does breed to answer the in's and out's. That does not make the Jack Russel Terrier and Staffordshire Terrier the same breed.
Which registry a dog is registered with really doesn't matter. There are some registries that are not recognized, none of which we are talking about. That point is really not relevant. There are some differences between the AST and APBT. There are likely more differences between the APBT's themselves. The ADBA and UKC APBT's are very different!
None of this dialogue is meant to be anything other than educational for those who do not know the history or details of purebred dogs and how a breed becomes one. It is a more complicated story than making blanket statements in order to move away from history. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter what the history of the breeds are for two reasons.
1. traits can be distinguished in 3 generations of breeding.
2. laws need to be based on logic and targeting irresponsible people not based on folklore and propaganda!
I am going to work on a blogpost about more of the history of the two breeds. I'll get some info from long time breeders, we have two long term breeders of both breeds among us. It is worth making it understood so we can put as much fact out there as possible. I'll also explain how a breed becomes a breed.. it is interesting.
I would say that AST and APBT are not the same breed any longer (even the standards are slightly different with APBT being the larger) but are more closely related than many breeds are. It is irrelevent in my mind however, because a dog is a dog.
Fight gene? Bunk. We can look at breeds or more accurately types of dogs (i.e. terriers, sporting, hounds) and make some broad generalizations regarding drive tendencies (lots of prey drive – terriers/herding/sighthounds, lots of defense drive, traditional working/guardian breeds) but these are really sweeping generalizations. How many times do you hear that all Siberians will run for miles in a straight line if they escape the yard. Or that all AST and APBT will not stop if they get into a fight with another dog. Or that hounds can't do obedience. Or Shih Tzus are all sweet with no drive. Or that terriers can't be taught to be called off of chasing cats/rats/ whatever. All sporting breeds are lovely, sweet, loyal dogs. Bunk. These are overly broad generalizations and I personally in my very small part of the world – though I do work with dogs and have for many years – see contradictions to every day. I have an APBT who wouldn't even defend himself when attacked by a Labrador (from across the room while the APBT's back was to the Lab). I have known several extremely aggressive Golden Retrievers, Shih Tzus, Labradors, Bichon Frise, Collies and many other supposedly “perfect companion” temperament breeds. I could give example after example and be here all day, but just look at a single litter of puppies, of course of the same genetic background. You will see a diverse spectrum of drives and personality types, and many breeders will do a puppy temperament test to determine their tendencies at that age and what type of home to place them in. However, even that is somewhat useless, because the truth is, once they get to their new homes, there are all the variables in how they are raised, what they are exposed to, how and when, or what they aren't exposed to, which will be a HUGE part of the personalities, confidence, fears, and therefore behaviours, they develop. Fight gene? I think not.
Well it was about that simple. The breed has been known as the Yankee terrier, the American Bull Terrier etc. Fact is that some APBT lines
were separated and registered with the kennel clubs as Amstaffs. There is nothing complex about it, when it has been proven time and time again
that folks can register just about anything as a litter of dogs with the CKC. Wasn't too long ago that a person registered a litter of kittens
as Golden Retrievers. Tons of unethical breeders are caught up with everday that are “registered” breeders. There are many out there that
don't have alot of use for some of the kennel clubs. I can certainly see why.
Best check the breeds Standards again Angela. The American Pit Bull Terrier is by no means bigger than the Amstaff………….
Cudos to you Caveat…you got right. The AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER and the Amstaff were indeed the same breed!!!!!!!
I also agree with the number of purebreds. I am not sure that the Amstaff total is accurate as I do not know if it includes imported
dogs. Do know there are not too many purebred APBT's. You got it happening Caveat….
The Amstaff is usually the largest, although the APBT standards don't have a size – it's all about balance.
I've seen some pretty big dogs that people say are APBTs and have been suprised, since the traditional size is about 35-50 lbs, with dogs under 30 lbs being considered too small.
My personal opinion is that the registries aren't doing the breed a favour by papering these great big dogs in view of the widespread fear-mongering.
My number for AmStaffs refers only to the CKC dogs and I imagine Lori's does too. There could be some AKC and/or FCI dogs here but let's face it, the breeds are overall so rare that a few more or less isn't significant.
35 – 60 lbs for the male under UKC, so I suppose that there is quite a range there. Many of the ones I have met have been at the larger end of the I guess. Most AmStaffs would certainly be more than 35 though, so yes, you are probably correct. It's still irrelevent. Dog is a dog.
Well, if I didn't 'have it happening' by now, Anonymous, I'd be in the wrong line of work.
The total includes imported dogs registered with the CKC.
From 200 – 2006 inclusive, ie, 7 years, 69 ASTs were registered in Ontario, an average of <10 per year.
Only the AmStaff and the Stafford have a height range in the standards.
I've seen some b-i-g APBTs that are bigger than AmStaffs and weigh more than 60 lbs. The UKC dogs seem to be bigger, on the whole, than the ADBA dogs. I like the smaller, more terrier-like types but I'm a big fan of terriers overall.
Incidentally, this article came from Associated Press, the Sun just grabbed it off the wire.
Lost who I am replying to now….lol ..but alas do those numbers include dogs that are AKC registered only?
Yep…most of what we are seeing as “Pit Bulls” are 150lbs….lol I have a male APBT…he goes 60 to 65 lbs depending on the season. I have
been seeing alot of bit Amstaffs these days….sort of sausage like….lol But you are right…when the day is done…they are all just dogs.
Something I have spent many years trying to teach people!
Oh, just figured out who I might be talking too. Didn't know it was your line of work??? Never crossed paths with you this
some 40 years I have been working with dogs…
I agree, the Amstaff is usually the larger. My boy as I mentioned goes about 60-65lbs depending on season….but he does not look large.
He is a moderate size, all muscle. Isn't large in stature at all. Had a gorgous GSD that passed away over 5 years ago. He was 110lbs. Wasn't
one of those so called King Shepherds….another breed that doesn't exist. But, my point is that he wasnt oversized either. Even my vet was
amazed when he got on the scale. He was another muscle bound boy whose weight could not be judged by his size. My Fila on the otherhand,
everyone says “are you sure he isn't more than 200 lbs?” So yes I totally agree that balance is the key. Of course that doesn't apply to these
150 lbs “PB” types we are seeing…..
Not really sure what the “traditional” size is….If one looks back at some of the old “fighting” dogs….they are a range of sizes. Colby dogs range
from 35-40 lbs to 70+ soooo??? I think for an APBT, 50 to 60 lbs is a nice weight.
I wasn't talking about 'working with dogs'. I've been hanging with dogs and studying them for over 55 years now. It's a big world.
That's not my line of work though. And this isn't a breed blog, it's a political blog in case you hadn't noticed.
I wonder if we should stop allowing anonymous comments here, the name is so common that it's tough to know who's who anymore.
Say, Anonymous, are you helping the cause or just spouting stuff we've all read and heard a million times?
Like, nobody cares, OK? Breeds are just a human filing system for dogs. They don't mean Jack in teh real world, you know, where dogs and most people live.
Only shut-ins and losers like McGuinty give a rat's ass about it.
Try telling that to the thousands of people who watched the Westminster dog show.
Personal attacks really lower the quality of this debate. This isn't a liberal blog.
This isn't a debate. It's some wanker trying to show off how much they know about APBTs. Trouble is, it's all common knowledge that anybody who is fighting bsl already knows.
What I meant was, the point of the post isn't' whether one breed is better or more popular than another.
Dogs are just dogs underneath, breeds are a human vice. Read the whole thread, there's nothing informative or polite about 'Anon', he is just sniiping at the person who wrote the post.
How do you know whether this is a liberal blog or not – speaking of slams. That's small-L liberal in case you didn't notice.
To make a comment about your reference to the breeds splitting being simple, what I was referring to as “more complicated” was the process in which a breed applies for and sets out to become registered with a kennel club as a recognized breed. There are 19 steps in total (I think). I do not have the time nor space to get into the logistics, hence my stating I would write a whole other post on the matter. It is interesting and many don't understand or know the process. Many think you can just pick a kennel club and sign up. Not that simple was what I was referring to. I did not intend this post to spark a debate about the origins of the APBT and AST. I did a post a while back on “What is a Texas Red Nose” written by Richard Stratton.
I would like to see the proof of “anything” being registered as a purebred dog with the CKC. Don't get me wrong, I am not here to defend the CKC one way or another but if one is going to make flippant remarks about an organization, one better have proof! Whether one has “use” for kennel clubs or not isn't what was being discussed in this post.
We do not accept personal attacks on this blog. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. We have those fighting this ill conceived, piece of sh*t law, and those who stand behind it reading the material put out here. Please keep that in mind at all times.
The take away points from this blog post in the first place were:
There is NO SUCH THING as a fighting “gene”.
To simply state that the APBT and AST split but are one in the same simply to get away from the “stigma” is over- generalization and not complete. We will be here yapping for quite a while, if a debate on the origins and beliefs surrounding the breeds are being discussed. If someone has some information they want put out for the benefit of the breeds, then submit your post to me for consideration of a guest post.
There is no such thing as a “pitbull”. If a dog bites or attacks it is most commonly identified as a “pitbull” with is a catchall phrase. To lump together 3 SEPARATE breeds and any other breed or cross breed that gets caught in the net is UNACCEPTABLE!
The purebred dogs named in the ban are RARE! We are using CKC numbers because that is all we could confirm. The numbers I gave you at the bottom of the post were directly from the Official Section of Dogs in Canada (the CKC magazine). There may be a few AKC, UKC, ADBA or FCI registered dogs in the province. We have no accurate way of tracking. Point is, the huge majority of dogs here in the province will be CKC reg'ed dogs with a few foreign registered. I really don't give a sh*t what the “precise number is” cause it doesn't matter! The point again was not the actual number; but the fact that all the “mutts” that are being identified as “pitbulls”, and the nearly 5000 dogs killed for nothing other than how they look, are NOT PUREBREDS. The dogs killed and targeted are (by the laws of arithmetic not my opinion) not the offspring of the purebreds! The purebreds are not being targeted. I would think because AC can't find them due to being so rare and the authorities have NO IDEA what they look like! I doubt more than 1% of the population of Ontario has ever laid eyes on one and that is likely a generous guess. Of the approx 1 or so percent I doubt they knew what it was if they did indeed see one; yet everyone thinks they have? Sort of like a Sasquatch. (Are Sasquatch registered with the CKC?) Now there is a blog post..
On an end note, I believe being a logical person that the most common “mutt” or cross bred dog that is being identified as a “pitbull” are derived from what the most common dog types are. I am not going to name breeds simply because I do not have to. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out! One thing I know for sure. I know most of the people personally who own an AST in the province and across the country for that matter. They are all people just like me. People who love and care for their dog/s and do not let their dogs out whoring around with other breeds. We have less than 20 members in our National breed club. What does that tell you? I am speaking of the AST, not because I am elitist but because I have one. I have also owned “ss” mutts. I have many friends who own APBT and SBT. I know they too wouldn't think of letting their dog out whoring around. Most of these dogs are neutered anyway because all the people I know are compliant and wouldn't jeopardize their dogs life. Those dogs intact must be shown in a CKC sanctioned show at least once per year in order to stay intact. Proof of attendance must be shown.
I hope this clears up the point of my post. As I said before, overall the original article in the Sun was good but when I see statements that may be misconstrued and used against us I feel I need to comment. If there are any posts with personal attacks I will delete the posts. Friendly banter is healthy but again please be careful to fact check your statements. Some well intended statements do not help, they hinder.
Wait a minute, I think I see the problem about the AmStaff numbers.
I assume this is for one year, yet it doesn't say that in the post, or which year it is.
It's not the total number, ever.
Am I right? Is that the source of the confusion?
And I agree – 'Fidelis' was being inflammatory.
That is correct.
If one read the post I snipped that from it would make more sense. The post was about Cote St. Luc but the info is the same.
Here is the link:
http://wagthedog.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2009/2/1/4077609.html
In fact I guarantee it will not find a Boston Terrier, Bull Terrier Jack Russell Terrier or cross-registered as an American Pit Bull Terrier with the UKC.
Don't waste another minute – by searching the internet
Online Business ,
There is nothing to lose, and everything to gain by getting on board now.